116 Lost Pages And Wicked Men

Now chatting with: Ana and Megan

Ana11:13 PM

Hello Miley! My name is Ana, how can i help you?

Miley11:17 PM

Question. I was reading the stories about wicked men that wished to alter the 116 lost pages to discredit the translation process. Because of this, God had an alternate plan to translate the scripture written by Nephi, the son the prophet Lehi, who wrote what was translated into the 116 pages.

Is that correct?

Ana11:18 PM

Yes, Because God knew that the pages would get lost, He inspired other prophets to also write what was written by Nephi.

Miley11:21 PM

But that does not stop the wicked men, because they could just as easily alter the 116 pages to contradict things written by Nephi. Does that fact that they didn't prove the wicked men were made up and did not exist?

Ana11:22 PM

It wasn't that they were not the same teachings, but that the lord knew the intents of the wicked men's hearts. They had a plan to change the contents of the original 116 pages, so that when Joseph Smith translated them again that they could call him a fraud. Because they would have altered the original copy.

Miley11:27 PM

Yes. And they could have also done the nearly the same thing with the Book of Nephi. Like you say, the intents of their hearts would have then lead them to alter 116 pages to alter all sorts of things, like names of Nephi's family, places, plot lines, etc. Because of the intents of their hearts they would have done this, like you say, but they didn't, proving they didn't really exist, they were just made up.

Being made up would also explain why they are nameless and never identified.

Megan11:31 PM

It might be easier to explain if we compare it to translating something else. Let's say you work at a book publishing company and it's your job to translate books into Spanish. If you know anything about translation or speaking 2 languages you should know that there are a few different ways to translate the same sentence. That plays a key role. You start translating the book, you get the first 55 pages done but then you lose them. One of your co workers finds the 55 pages you translated and happens to want your job, they decide to take them and alter them making it seem like you translated it poorly. This meaning that when your now altered 55 pages are compared to the English book, they are different.

Miley11:38 PM

Yes I understand that. So you translate the next chapter.

Megan11:38 PM

Yes, and the 55 pages happened to be a part of the Prologue of the book or another viewpoint of the same story.

Miley11:41 PM

Yes. So your co-worker then changes the Prologue to show you mis-translated the same story that continue. Do you understand?

Megan11:42 PM

There's only 1 copy of the English prologue and I have it, what my coworker did was change what I translated to make me look dumb

Miley11:44 PM

Yes that is what I am saying, the co-worker change the prologue to make your next translation look incorrect. So you agree.

Megan11:45 PM

If you are saying the co-worker changed the 55 pages that I translated, then yes

Miley11:47 PM

The co-work is in possession of the 55 page prolgoue and has the power to change them anyway they wish. You translate chapter one, he changes the Prologue to show embarrassing mistakes in your translation of chapter 1.

Megan11:38 PM

If Joseph Smith re-translated the 116 pages it's possible that some sentences would be different, they would mean the same but they could be worded a little differently (translation process). Plus, the men would have changed the first 116 pages and said that they were completely different and Joseph Smith just changed the story

Miley11:40 PM

No actually, the "revelation's" hypothetical says the translation would not be different. It is the wicked men changing the original so it does not match the second. So no, according to the story, the second translation should have been the same.

Megan11:42 PM

That different sentences idea was more my personal view, I've translated things before. Seeing as Joseph Smith was translating from the power of God, he probably would have better than me haha

Miley11:43 PM

It is not clear that JS was translating. By the gift and power of God has come be to describe more as dictating.

Megan11:45 PM

Yeah, he didn't have a good education so he didn't write well. Because he didn't write well, he spoke out loud and a scribe wrote for him.

Miley11:46 PM

And he had zero knowledge of Reformed Eygptian, so he was not "translating", he was reading off divinity's translation.

Megan11:49 PM

That would be too obvious. If you only changed the names and story lines like that it wouldn't be any sort of proof, it's not as strong. And because they are different parts, it wouldn't work.

Miley11:51 PM

"Not as strong" or "wouldn't work". Your reason is because "different parts"

Megan11:53 PM

If a detective was looking at a case where someone was murdered by a knife they would try to find the exact knife the murderer used to pull fingerprints from it and prove who the murderer is.

Miley11:53 PM

Nephi asked to see Lehi's dream, not really a different part, in fact the whole story says it is not different, but more or less the same story of how they arrive in the Americas

Megan11:53 PM

They wouldn't use replicas to or a different knife to do so, you have to use the one with the fingerprints. You need solid evidence to send someone to jail. You need solid evidence to prove someone wrong. If you don't, it's useless evidence

Miley11:54 PM

What you did is called a false analogy.

Megan11:54 PM

Miley, it's been a pleasure, it's about 10pm and I have some pumpkin pie at home waiting for me. Have a goodnight, I hope you find the answer you are searching for :)

Miley11:55 PM

The analogy of a murder weapon and ability to translate is not the same. The ability to murder yes. If the suspected murder is claimed to be strong and athletic, but the suspect is disabled and in a wheel chair, right, he could not be the murderer.

Miley11:56 PM

So in the case of JS, if he has the translation superpower, the wicked men show him to be faking, only in a wheel chair, they have accomplished their purpose.

Miley11:57 PM

I understand you need to run away. It is a tough one for you.

[She left the chat -- not explaining her false analogy, essentially admitting evidence proves the hypothetical wrong, but it is not "strong" evidence, but no evidence is required to prove the hypothetical right. Interesting!]

Now chatting with: Gina and Madeline

Madeline12:12 AM

Hey Miley! How can we help you tonight?

Miley12:13 AM

Hey I was just chatting with Ana and Megan, but they had some pumpkin pie waiting for them, they didn't invite to share with me.

We were chatting about the 116 lost pages and wicked men. God had an alternate plan to not retranslate the Book of Lehi, but rather translate more or less the same story by his son Nephi, right?

Madeline12:19 AM

That is a great question! We have never read the Book of Lehi so we could not say if it was more or less the same story, but we definitely agree that the account given by Nephi is what God wants us to have.

Madeline12:20 AM

If you don't mind us asking, what made you so interested in this topic?

Miley12:25 AM

I was reading the story of the wicked men, who planned to change the 116 pages and I realized that if those wicked men were so intent, they could have just as easily change the 116 pages that describe Lehi's journey out of Jerusalem to the New World, visions and all, to contradict Nephi's account of the same thing, being that Nephi tells the same story and several of the visions of this father, Lehi, that would have been in the 116 pages. The fact the wicked men did not do this, and the fact that the wicked men are not named or identified, all indicated that the wicked men did not actually exist.

Miley12:25 AM

Right?

[15 minutes later ...]

Miley12:40 AM

Hello?

Madeline12:41 AM

You are right, the 116 pages of manuscript that Martin Harris's family took could have been changed and produced to the public in an attempt to disprove the Book of Mormon, but that attempt never took place. The people who stole it are unknown but that does not mean that they did not exist. What source are you studying to get this information?

Miley12:43 AM

The Book of Mormon and DC 3 and 10. So you agree that not retranslating Lehi and translating Nephi does nothing to thwart the wicked men. The could have existed, but for God to suggest that not retranslating thwarts their plan is wrong.

[They ended the chat, unable to explain why God falsely concludes not retranslating thwarts the wicked men The chat session has ended.]

Now chatting with: Aerin and Brooklyn and Paula

Brooklyn

5:43 PM

Hi Pedro! How can we help you today?

Pedro

5:44 PM

Are you familiar with DC 10 and the 116 lost pages?

Brooklyn

5:45 PM

Do you have questions about it?

Pedro

5:47 PM

Verse 42 of DC 10, when God said publishing Nephi "confound those", what did He mean? How did it confound those that altered the 116 pages?

Brooklyn

5:48 PM

The people who found the lost 116 pages that Martin Harris lost were changing the words to try and disprove the prophet and basically say everything he was doing was wrong. So in verse 42 when he says "confound those who have altered my words" He is saying he will confound those people who were changing the words of the lost 116 pages.

Pedro

5:52 PM

How did that stop them from altering the 116 pages to contradict Nephi?

Brooklyn

5:53 PM

The 116 pages that were lost were written by Lehi. Nephi tells the story through his eyes and not by Lehi. He didn't copy exactly what Lehi said. He was telling the same story but he used different words.

Pedro

5:55 PM

Right. But that does not stop the them from altering Lehi to contradict Nephi.

Brooklyn

5:56 PM

You're right. They did change the words of Lehi. But it didn't contradict Nephi and his words. There is only one translation of Nephi's words.

Pedro

5:59 PM

So, you agree they could have easily altered Lehi to contradict Nephi. How do you know that the altered Lehi did not contradict Nephi?

Brooklyn

5:59 PM

Because the Lord promised he would not contradict them.

Pedro

6:01 PM

You appear to be talking about the unaltered Lehi. I am talking about the altered Lehi. Are you saying the Lord physically stop the conspirators from altering Lehi further?

Brooklyn

6:01 PM

They were only able to alter the 116 pages. And because they altered them, the Lord confounded them. This is why those pages never resurfaced because they were not truth, so they were lost forever.

Pedro

6:11 PM

I am talking about altering Lehi, not Nephi. I not sure if you deliberating misunderstanding. I am talking about altering Lehi pages to contradict Nephi. My original question was "how" did it confound them. It appears the answer is you do not know how it confounded them, though DC 10 seems clear there was a how. But that does not stop them from altering the 116 pages to also contradict Nephi. Now you are saying He confounded them by having the 116 pages disappear. If they disappeared then there was no need for Nephi to confound the conspirators. So, it appears your answer is that Nephi has not part of the plan to confound the conspirators, but they were confounded by a different method not in DC 10, by God destroying the 116 pages. Right?

Aerin

6:12 PM

It confounded them because it was a different telling of the same events, therefore it was not the same thing as Lehi's telling. Which means they could not compare Lehi's altered telling, to Nephi's telling.

Pedro

6:14 PM

That is not true. They could have easily altered Lehi to contradict something in Nephi.

Aerin

6:15 PM

Do you believe in God?

Pedro

6:15 PM

In fact an expert forger could claim today to have discovered the 116 pages and have them contradict the Book of Mormon.

Aerin

6:16 PM

Do you believe in God?

Pedro

6:17 PM

Of course, Aerin. What is the purpose of the change of subject?

Aerin

6:17 PM

Because if you believe in God, then you believe that He has the power to confound men so that they could not hinder His work.

Pedro

6:19 PM

So, you don't have an answer. God confounded them, but you don't know the "how".

Aerin

6:20 PM

Did you happen to read versus 43 of the same section? It states "I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work... I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater then the cunning of the devil." That is the how we need, that God is greater, then why question His power.

Pedro

6:22 PM

Ok. Got it.

Fact is DC 10 does give a how, and it is clear the how was not by destroying 116 pages. The how given in DC 10 makes an error. The error is the unnamed supposed conspirators could easily alter the 116 pages to contradict Nephi as easily as a retranslation of Lehi. Evidence therefore is that they never existed.

Aerin

6:27 PM

I see you are trolling. I'm still glad that you came to talk to us today, but I hope you have a great day, as we are not here to argue, but rather help others draw closer to Jesus Christ.

Pedro

6:29 PM

So, you admit it is a problem by calling me a troll, you see the contradiction. Name calling does not help you get closer to Christ

Aerin

6:31 PM

No, I am simply tired of playing your game, everything that you are questioning, is questions wither or not the Book of Mormon is true, all I can do is witness that is, and I do not want to argue. We hope you have a wonderful day.

The chat session has ended.

Now chatting with: Bianca and Sister Trevino

Bianca

6:34 PM

Hi, Pedro. How are you doing today? 

Pedro

6:34 PM

I am well how are you?

Bianca

6:34 PM

I am well too. It's a beautiful day here. How can I help you? :)

Pedro

6:34 PM

I was just chatting with Aerin and Brooklyn. They indicated that the explanation in DC 10 for confounding the unnamed conspirators altering the 116 pages has an inconsistency on God's part. They were unable resolve the inconsistency and abruptly ended the chat with name calling. Can you help them resolve the inconsistency?

Bianca

6:39 PM

I'll just give a brief reading on that and I'll get back to you. Is that alright? And I'm sorry for that before.

Pedro

6:40 PM

Sure. Take your time.

Bianca

6:41 PM

What's the inconsistency you are asking about exactly? 

Pedro

6:45 PM

DC 10 describes how God confounded the unnamed conspirators. However, the how given does not stop the conspirators. The conspirators could still complete their plan by altering the lost pages to contradict anything Joseph Smith would continue to translate (Nephi), if the conspirators were real.

Bianca

6:45 PM

How I see it is that they would not be accusing Joseph Smith to translate Nephi wrong if they just used the 116 pages to contradict 

They would simply be trying to oppose in doctrine.

Which they did anyways.

The heading of the section says:

"The evil design was to await the expected retranslation of the matter covered by the stolen pages and then to discredit the translator by showing discrepancies created by the alterations"

Pedro

6:51 PM

Exactly. And if that was their plan, they would have altered the pages to contradict events, places, themes in Nephi. They would have changed the name of Nephi's brothers, anything. So not re-translating Lehi and continuing with translating Nephi does nothing to confound the supposed plan.

Bianca

6:52 PM

I'm not sure about that to be honest 

Pedro

6:53 PM

Yeah. It really is a tough one. It could be there is no good way to resolve the inconsistency, because it is in fact an inconsistency.

Bianca

6:53 PM

One thing I've been noticing is that Satan plants little seeds of doubts in people's hearts, he doesn't use only full lies, but he changes the truth a little to confound people

I was reading these days about Jesus Christ being tempted when he was fasting

Pedro

6:54 PM

That is true. For example, sometimes Satan makes people doubt their faith in their priesthood.

Bianca

6:55 PM

Did you notice how he was using scriptures to tempt?

I've seen that so much recently. He just mixes truth and lie to confound us

Pedro

6:55 PM

I did. Sometimes Satan uses scripture similar to the Bible to tempt people.

Bianca

6:56 PM

That could be one of the reasons why they ended up not using the translation. Sometimes he takes Bible verses out of context. Sometimes he tries to convince people that they don't need more of God's words

Pedro

6:56 PM

Sometimes he mixes things similar to the Bible with Bible verses.

Bianca

6:56 PM

Satan teaches people to trust in their own understanding, instead of the Spirit of God. There are so many things

Pedro

6:57 PM

And God teaches to harmonizing reason with the Spirit. When reason and the Spirit are not in harmony, something is wrong.

Bianca

6:57 PM

The glory of God is intelligence. I agree that He gave us a working brain so we can think and understand. But it is indeed intelligence to recognize that God knows it better. That's why I choose to study diligently in spirit of prayer, always asking God to confirm truth to my heart. And to protect me from confusion. Have you ever tried doing that? 

Pedro

7:00 PM

Best of luck to you Bianca. May you one day find the answers to the tough questions above, one day overcome the confusion, and harmonize reason with the Spirit.

The chat session has ended.