5:15 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhKGiw0ZVBM
Now chatting with: En-Chi and Rebecca
En-Chi9:52 PM
Hi George, how are you? This is En-Chi from comeuntochrist.org. How can we help you today?
George9:55 PM
Question. I was reading the website and the Book of Mormon. The idea of reading and praying is interesting. But how can a warm feeling of the Spirit tell one what is true. Literally thousands of words are in any scripture and some of the those words cannot be true and some can be true. So how can a warm feeling of the Spirit tell someone something is true? There is vast amount of data in any scripture with potential truth, half-truths, and out right falsehoods.
En-Chi9:56 PM
Wow That is a good question! Have you ever tried to pray about the Book of Mormon yourself?
George9:58 PM
Yes and you?
En-Chi9:56 PM
That is awesome! Of course I do. But how do you feel when you pray about it?
George10:00 PM
The same way I feel about the parables of Jesus when I pray about them. Do you feel the same way about the Book of Mormon when pray about it as you do about the parables of Jesus when you pray about them?
Rebecca10:02 PM
Yes, I can always feel the spirit testifying to me when I read and study Christ's teaching. Would you mind describing how you feel when you pray about Christ's parables?
George10:04 PM
A peace, calm, a warm feeling, like a comforter. And you? You feel that way about the parables of Jesus, even though they are made up?
Rebecca10:04 PM
I don't feel the spirit telling me "There really was someone who built their house on a rock! And there really was someone who built their house on sand!" it testifies to me the lesson Christ wants us to learn from those parables. When I read that one, for example, the spirit reminds me of ways to have a firm foundation for my faith so it can remain stable through my life. Does that make sense?
What's your favorite parable?
George10:07 PM
Yes that does make a whole lot of sense. So the exact same would be true of the Book of Mormon. It is made up, but true.
Rebecca10:07 PM
The spirit has testified to me that the Book of Mormon isn't a parable, but was by real people who recorded those experiences. It's not a parable. Like Christ's Crucifixion, we can learn a lot from it, but it wasn't a parable. It's okay if the spirit hasn't testified the truth of the Book of Mormon to you yet, you'll have that one day, I promise!
George10:11 PM
How can a warm feeling of the Spirit tell one what is true. Literally thousands of words are in any scripture and some of those words cannot be true and some can be true. So how can a warm feeling of the Spirit tell someone something is true? Surely there is unlimited data in any writting with potential truth, half-truths, and out right falsehoods.
Rebecca10:12 PM
The spirit can only testify of truth. If you feel the spirit while reading the scriptures, it's telling you that they are true! It simply will never testify of something that is false.
George10:13 PM
So you don't have an answer?
Rebecca10:13 PM
Can you ask the question again?
George10:17 PM
How can a warm feeling of the Spirit tell one what is true out the thousands of possible things that are or are not true in a writing. A generic warm feeling can not specify exactly what part is true. It appears your answer is to call others liars. Millions of people say the Spirit tells them the Book of Mormon is just an allegory, true, but made up, like the parables of Jesus. You are saying that is not possible. Isn't it possible you are just confusing the Spirit's testimony for the true moral parts of the Book of Mormon? Or is it necessary for you to believe that everyone else is lying?
Rebecca10:17 PM
I believe I understand the question now, thank you for clarifying! I'll do my best to answer.
Rebecca10:18 PM
I suppose you do have a point; the spirit isn't always going to bluntly say "Verse 17 of chapter 9 is true" but it will let you know that something in there is true. We then have the amazing opportunity to continue to search to find more specifically what the spirit is trying to tell us. As we continue to study and ponder with open and willing minds and hearts, that will show to God our willingness and want to learn, giving us more opportunity for the spirit to testify to us.
As it comes to other people and how they feel about the Book of Mormon, I can't tell them what to feel and how to decipher the feelings. All I know is that the Spirit has very strongly and distinctively told me that the Book of Mormon is a true record, and I can't deny that.
Why did you start your study of the Book of Mormon?
George10:24 PM
Did the Spirit tell you that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the Native Americans?
Rebecca10:24 PM
Yes, it has! And on my mission I've been able to serve on Navajo reservations and teach Native American people. Countless numbers of them have testified to me that they recognize their heritage came from the Lamanites.
George10:26 PM
But Mormons now say that the Lamanites are not the principal ancestors of the Native Americans, they are only among the ancestors, not the principal ancestors.
Is the LDS Church wrong to have change this mean of "true record" around 2008?
Rebecca10:27 PM
Well I'm not a Mormon, sir, I'm a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints.
That's a statement I haven't heard the church release, so I can't say much about it. All I know is that as I served with Navajo people, they told me of their heritage and connected it with the Book of Mormon. I can't think of a better testimony than the Natives themselves!
George10:30 PM
How old are you? It was big news. So you are saying you do not know what the LDS Church teachings, but you are a missionary for them?
Rebecca10:30 PM
I'm 21. For the record, the Church's teachings are that God loves us, that Jesus Christ is his son and that Jesus Christ died for us, and that we are still able to feel God's love today. That's the core of our teachings.
George10:32 PM
A navajo girl spent her summers with a neighbor under a Utah program to westernize them. The Navajo's were greatly insulted by this program and ended it. So most Navajos disagree with you.
So you deny the Church's teaching, but you will never deny the Spirit. Good for you. When the Spirit tells you to deny the Church's teachings, you need to do that!
Well if only the core teachings matter, then it does not matter if the the Book of Mormon is just an allegory. The Spirit has told me this, and I know that you can come to know it also. I can not deny the Spirit.
So you were 10 years old when the Church change the true record definition of the Book of Mormon from Lamanites being "principal" ancestor to "among". Your Book of Mormon introductions says "among"?
Rebecca10:39 PM
Well, it seems that you know everything you need to know! And I don't want you to deny what the spirit has taught you either. Most Navajos I spoke with and had the chance to teach and to learn from were part of the Placement program. They told me of how great a blessing it was in their lives and the opportunities it has given them. Those families are now happy and are able to live balanced lives of respecting their culture and knowing this religion is true. I've heard several of them tell me that they know that they are descendants of the Lamanites and other tribes mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and that they are so glad to have the Book of Mormon in their lives. I've been in the homes of these people, eaten at their table, and have been able to learn their language. Not very well, but I try. The Book of Mormon was more or less written for the Natives, which I think is pretty dang cool.
George10:41 PM
Which goes back to the question at the start. If the Spirit is the same, why does it tell different people different things? Why do some Navajo disagree with other Navajo. Etc. I think I know what your confusion is, but do you?
Rebecca10:41 PM
It's because we have agency.
George10:41 PM
Close. James 1:5 is referring to wisdom, not knowledge.
Rebecca10:42 PM
I think you're under the impression that you'r hear to teach me.
George10:42 PM
This website is to bring others closer to Christ. Do you not wish to come closer to Christ? To do so you will need to humble yourself.
Rebecca10:42 PM
This chat is to help people learn more about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you know all you need to know, what is your purpose here?
George10:43 PM
This website is explicitly to bring others closer to Christ.
Rebecca10:43 PM
Give me one moment as I look up that scripture, please!
George10:43 PM
You have to look it up? If all we had to do was pray and ask God for knowledge, then there would be no need for work and the science.
James 1:5 is referring to wisdom, which is a course of action, as in when a person has two options. Many time neither option is a good one, but the Spirit helps people choose.
Moroni 10 is referring to God being merciful since the time of Adam down, which of course is true by definition, and so one should not even need to pray.
Rebecca10:47 PM
Mormon binaaltsoos éí Diyin bizaad át'é
Rebecca10:49 PM
Bihidiné'éyée ya halne'
George10:49 PM
For some people the best course of action is to join and the LDS congregation. For others another congregation in the body of Christ. People then confuse this best course of action for errant beliefs of the congregation as being true.
Just as you did with "principal" ancestors, which the LDS church has told you is a errant belief you have misinterpreted from the Spirit.
Does that make sense?
Rebecca10:51 PM
I know that spirit. I don't misinterpret what it tells me. If I worry I don't fully understand, I continue to study and am humble and willing to let it teach me.
George10:52 PM
So the LDS Church is wrong? How do you know how to interpret it? Remember, that was my original question. Does it tell you Nephi had a horse? Wheat, metal, swords, domesticated animals, etc. All those revolutionary technologies in the New World, does it tell you those are all true records?
Rebecca10:54 PM
Jesus Christ Binahaga' Akée'di Dayoołkáałgo Ya Naazínígíí bisoodzin báhooghan yiląąjl' Sizĺ
Łįį ish la ńzin?
George10:55 PM
What language? Pentecostals usually speak in tongues, when the Spirit moves upon them.
Rebecca10:58 PM
Navajo. As I said, I learned the language to the best of my ability to teach the Native people. I apologize that I respond slow, my keyboard does not accommodate for the certain alphabet characters, so I have to go the long way around. I have grown a testimony for the gift of tongues, as it has helped me teaching people the true Gospel.
Rebecca10:59 PM
Jesus Christ bízhi' binahjį' asishní, Amen
George11:00 PM
That is a good example. You are interpretting "gift of tongues" very differently than Pentecostals, Pentecostals would say you are referring to learning, not the gift of tongues, which was exactly my question at the start. A writting has thousands of words and nearly unlimited data, the warm feeling of the Spirit does not split all the hairs and decipher.
You are saying that you do not misinterpret the Spirit, but the LDS Church has told you have if the Spirit told you true record means "principal" ancestors. How do you reconcile this?
Rebecca11:02 PM
Diné Bizaad ní nantł'án!
George11:02 PM
So, for some reason, you are no longer comfortable conversing in English. What does that tell you about how you are feeling now?
Rebecca11:03 PM
It tells you that you didn't understand me in English, so I tried the other language, and now I'm tired and bored. My testimony is my testimony, and you kept saying the same things.
Hágoónee'
[She ended the chat The chat session has ended.]
Now chatting with: Chalet and Haylie
Haylie5:16 PM
Hey Martin! How are you?
Martin5:17 PM
I am well. I was just watching a youtube video of a Mormon Missionary saying the Book of Mormon is like the parables of Jesus, made up but true. Is that correct?
Haylie5:17 PM
I'm not quite sure what video you are referring to, but we know that the Book of Mormon is a true Book that brings us closer to Christ!
Martin5:21 PM
Is it made up but true, like the parables of Jesus?
Haylie5:21 PM
It is accounts of different Prophets who lived in the ancient America's. They wrote down their true experiences that they had with Jesus Christ, and different experiences that shaped their faith!
And now, thousands of years later, we are able to learn from their experiences and grow our faith in Jesus Christ as well!
Martin5:24 PM
Where in the ancient America's?
Haylie5:25 PM
I'll be honest I'm not sure what the ancient america's were like back then
Martin5:29 PM
So it doesn't matter whether they were real or not, we can still learn from their experiences and grow our faith in Jesus Christ as well. Is that correct?
Haylie5:36 PM
I think that knowing that it is true helps us have a deeper understanding and faith in Jesus Christ!
Martin5:38 PM
I am not understanding your answer. You are saying it is made up, but true, just the like the parables of Jesus?
Haylie5:39 PM
No I would never say that, because I know without a doubt that it is true, and that every thing that is recorded throughout the Book of Mormon actually happened!
Martin5:40 PM
But you don't know where in ancient America it occured. So how do you know without a doubt?
Haylie5:40 PM
Because I have read the Book of Mormon many times, and every single time I do, the Holy Ghost witnesses of the truth to me.
Martin5:41 PM
Just like the parables of Jesus? The Holy Ghost also witnesses to the truth of the parables of Jesus. Also, if you have no doubt, then you don't have faith.
Haylie5:42 PM
I wouldn't know if it was true if I didn't have faith! I never personally saw these Prophets, I never personally saw the plates that these records were written on. But the Holy Ghost has testified to me the truth, and I know without a doubt that all of these things that I haven't seen, are true.
Martin5:45 PM
The same Holy Ghost testifies that the made up parables of Jesus are true. So we have established that the Holy Ghost testimony doesn't tell if the story is made up or not, only that the morals of the story are true.
Haylie5:45 PM
Have you ever received an answer to prayers Martin?
Martin5:47 PM
All the time. Silly question. I have seen myself and other people misinterpret an answer. You are clearly misinterpreting an answer for something else. Just because the Spirit has testified to you the best course of action for you personally is to be Mormon does not mean the parables of Jesus actually happen, just like the alegory of the BoM being true doesn't mean the the BoM actually happened.
So what you are saying is you have no reason for knowing that BoM actually happened. Does it matter?
Haylie5:51 PM
Well that's amazing that you have received answers to prayers!
But Martin I have specifically prayed to know if the Book of Mormon is true. If these events actually happened. And I received my answer! No misinterpretation, no confusion, not a shadow of doubt. I do know and forever will know that it is true! And that knowledge and witness is extended to ANY honest seeker of truth. Anyone who reads and prays with real intent can know the truth
Martin5:52 PM
If that is true, then you have to belief that the nature of God is such that God engages in massive conspiracies to deceive men, because all the scientific evidence is that it did not occur.
But the fact that the same Sprit that tells us the made up parables are true is the only evidence you are giving proves you are confused.
Haylie5:53 PM
Well if we had every scientific evidence and answer, where would the need be for faith?
Would you believe in it even then?
Martin5:53 PM
Haha. You just said you have no doubt, which means you do not have faith. Yes I believe in it. Just like I believe in the parables of Jesus. You are the one struggling with your testimony
The LDS Church has confessed it was wrong. It no longer says the the laminates are the principal ancestors of the native Americas and people like you said the Spirit told them they were the principals ancestors. Even the LDS Church has said people like you are wrong.
Haylie5:57 PM
Well Martin, we invite you to sincerely read the Book of Mormon and pray to know the truth! You don't only have to believe, but you can KNOW for yourself. That's a promise God has given all of His children! It's been really nice talking with you and we hope you have a great day!
Martin5:58 PM
I have. I invite you to listen better.
[They ended the chat]
Now chatting with: Marcie and Nathalia
Marcie6:21 PM
Hi Martin! What can I do for you today?
Martin6:25 PM
I was just chatting with Chalet and Haylie. They could not answer some questions.
Martin6:26 PM
We established that the BoM is true like the parables of Jesus and that the LDS Church informed Mormons who believed the Spirit told them the Laminates were the principal ancestors of Native American they are confused.
Chalet and Haylie could not say whether or not it matter if the events of the BoM actually or if they were just made up like the parables of Jesus.
Does it matter if they are made up or not?
Marcie6:28 PM
Just like the Bible is a record of people that lived in the Holy Land, the Book of Mormon is a record of the people living in Ancient America.
Martin6:29 PM
But unlike the Bible there really isn't any significant scientific evidence of this. But that doesn't answer my question, does it? The question was: Does it matter?
Marcie6:30 PM
It matters to me because I have found it to be true. But I can't force anyone else to care about it or believe it. Does that make sense?
Martin6:33 PM
Everyone believes it is true, like the parables of Jesus. Whether or not the events actually happened is a completely different question. You have not really answered the question.
Would it matter to you if the events did not actually happen?
Marcie6:34 PM
There were 11 witnesses to the gold plates. That is proof enough for me. Sometimes we just need to exercise faith.
Martin6:36 PM
There were thousands of witness of the Strangite plates and the LDS Church says they were fakes. But again you are refusing to answer a really simple and basic question that needs to
asked and answer before all else: Does it matter or not?
Marcie6:36 PM
I did answer. It matters to me. Does it matter to you?
Martin6:37 PM
Of course not. I am curious why it appears to matter to you? What are you hiding? The only reason something so simple is hard to answer is if you hiding something.
Marcie6:39 PM
I find great peace in the Book of Mormon and the stories of the people. I love to know that they were real because it makes it more relatable to me. That's why I care.
Now chatting with: Amy and Marcie and Nathalia
Martin6:41 PM
Wanting something to be relatable does not make them real. If you had a testimony you could find them relatable regardless. Just like the parables of Jesus. They are relatable and made up.
[They ended the chat]
Now chatting with: Madison and Tiffany
Madison3:15 PM
HI Jessie, how can I help you today?
Jessie3:19 PM
Is the Spirit capable of telling you if the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the Native Americans?
Madison3:20 PM
The Spirit can tell you all truth so it could witness to you personally of that however no scientist have been able to prove anything one way or the other
Jessie3:22 PM
And what has the Spirit told you on the subject?
Madison3:22 PM
Honestly, I have never studied it out and prayed about that specifically so the Spirit has not told me anything concerning this
Jessie3:24 PM
I have seen many Mormons claim the Spirit has told them this is true. Have you?
Madison3:26 PM
I'm just going to reiterate what I already said, I have never studied that particular topic nor prayed about it therefore the Spirit has not told me anything concerning that subject but I can send you a essay that the Church has published on this topic
Madison3:27 PM
Here's the essay https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng
Madison3:27 PM
The Church has not declared that it is true or false, the official doctrine of the Church is that the people from the Book of Mormon are among the ancestors of the Native Americans however we do not know to what extend. If you have heard individuals who claim that then that is their truth however it is not official church doctrine
Jessie3:29 PM
So you have not see Mormons claim this. Interesting. Seems extremely weird that you have not. Why would Mormons think the Spirit told them that this is true, when the LDS church has declared it is not true?
The official doctrine used to be "principal ancestors". Why the change?
It seems you were disingenious when you indicated that you have not heard Mormons claim this, because now it appears you are familiar with LDS claiming this.
Madison3:35 PM
I'm not sure what you're talking about, all I know is the Churches current official stance on this matter.
I personally have never heard anyone claim this but I do know our churches official doctrine on this
Jessie3:36 PM
You have not answer the question of why they changed the official doctrine? You are familiar with the current doctrine, but unfamiliar with why it changed?
Madison3:36 PM
I have never heard of the doctrine being anything other than what it is now. How did you hear it changed?
Jessie3:39 PM
Really? Hummm. Difficult to believe. But it is a fact that the previvous doctrine was "principal ancestors" and little over 5 years ago it was change to "among" How does that fact make you feel?
Madison3:39 PM
I have never heard that before, I'm so sorry that it may be confusing for you
Jessie3:40 PM
How old are you?
Madison3:40 PM
That's not relevant to our conversation
Jessie3:41 PM
Now we all know you are lying. It is extremely revelant.
If you don't know about the doctrine change, age is the only explanation. Sorry that may be confusing for you, but it is a fact. But what is relevant is now that you know the doctrine was changed, how does that make you feel.
Madison3:43 PM
It confirms to me that President Russell M Nelson is a prophet of God and if there was a doctrine change (which I don't know that there was) than it was an inspired change that came from God.
Jessie3:44 PM
Doctrine changes? That doesn't seem odd to you? Truth changes? I thought truth was truth.
Madison3:45 PM
To what percentage the Lamanites were the ancestors of the Native Americans is really rather irrelevant church information. The most important things that I believe in is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Joseph Smith is a prophet of God called to restore His church to the earth and the Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
Jessie3:47 PM
Exactly. Now you are getting it and finally coming closer to Christ. The Lamanites could be 0 percent ancestors and it would still be irrevelant. The Books of James Strang are also another Testament of Jesus Christ. Just like the Book of Mormon. So many of your fellow missionaries think you are wrong, that the Spirit's testimony means that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the Native Americans.
Jessie3:50 PM
But the truth is what you have come to know, that the Spirit only testifies of the moral of the story, not to whether or not the events actually happened, for that would be irrelevant.
Jessie3:50 PM
So good to see I was able to help you come closer to Christ.
The chat session has ended.
Now chatting with: Abbie and Lauren
Abbie3:54 PM
Hi Jessie! How can we help you today?
Jessie3:54 PM
Question. If the Spirit can tells all things, then why have prophets?
Abbie3:56 PM
That's a good question :) The spirit does tell us all things that we should do, but the spirit never gives us promptings for someone else (unless we have the keys to do so). The Prophet has the keys given to him in order to receive revelation for the whole church, rather than just himself. Another example is that Bishops have keys to receive revelation for their ward.
Jessie3:59 PM
Can you give me an example? So you saying we do not need prophets for truth, only for group decisions. Makes sense.
Lauren4:00 PM
What kind of truths?
Jessie4:01 PM
Truth is truth. Doesn't matter what kind of truth. So prophets are not needed for truth, just group decisions.
Abbie4:03 PM
We can receive personal truth from the spirit, but prophets have the gift of prophecy, which means they teach us of truths as well. Just like in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.
The chat session has ended.
Now chatting with: Madison and Tiffany
Madison4:06 PM
Hi Jessie
Jessie4:10 PM
Hi. I was just chatting with Abbie. She indicated that we do not need prophets for truth, because the Spirit is capable giving us all truth. Why do we then have prophets?
Madison4:11 PM
What exactly did Abbie say?
Jessie4:13 PM
Sorry I don't have the cut paste capability. May be you can explain how you understand. Are prophets necessary, after all we have the Spirit?
Madison4:13 PM
Prophets are necessary, they are able to help lead and guide people and receive answers from God for the entire world whereas we can only receive those answers for ourselves
Jessie4:15 PM
For example?
Jessie4:16 PM
Truth is truth isn't it. Are you suggesting it is relative?
Madison4:17 PM
maybe this video can explain it better than I can https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/video/2015-01-1090-why-do-we-have-prophets?lang=eng
Jessie4:18 PM
So you can't explain. Interesting.
Madison4:18 PM
I could but this video is much more clear and simple than what I could say so please go ahead and watch that
Jessie4:19 PM
The video did not answer the question. So you can 't answer the question. Interesting.
Jessie4:20 PM
The video only indicates there is thing called prophets and they are nice to have and it is a pattern of prophets existing.
Madison4:20 PM
Prophets are able to warn us of things before we may even know to ask about them so they help us avoid spiritual danger
Jessie4:20 PM
None of the answer the question, unless conceding that prophets are not necessary, just a nicety is an answer.
Jessie4:20 PM
So we can all do that.
Madison4:21 PM
Jessie, what is your purpose in coming on to chat so frequently?
Jessie4:21 PM
My purpose to come closer to Christ. What is your purpose?
Jessie4:21 PM
Me, you, your neighbor can all warn each other so we must all be prophets. Whether or not we listen to each other is another qusiton ....
[Madison ended the chat\