Now chatting with: Judith and Martin
Martin 5:32 AM
Hi Amie how can I help you?
Amie 5:33 AM
Question. I was thinking about some of the peculiar language I hear and read the LDS use. For example "one true church". Does "one true church" mean that all other churches are false?
Martin 5:33 AM
That is a good question. "One true Church" is an unfortunate expression in my opinion. All Churches have truth, some more than others.
Amie 5:36 AM
Interesting. If it is an unfortunate expression, why is it so predominate in LDS language? Why does it appear to be encouraged?
Martin 5:37 AM
Where have you seen it written?
Amie 5:40 AM
Martin, I have limited ability in this chat. I have a search page open, but I do not have cut and paste ability in your chat app. More interesting, is that you appear to be denying that that is an extremely common phrase amongst LDS. Lets focus on that while I take the hour to prepare numerous references for you. To clarify, you are denying that is an extremely common phrase amongst LDS?
Martin 5:41 AM
Amie - I do not really want to debate this point with you.
Amie 5:41 AM
No one is asking to debate. Does something about this make you uncomfortable?
Martin 5:42 AM
Yes to be honest. You appear to have an issue and I do not want to argue. I would prefer to respect your opinion. Could you express your opinion for me please.
Amie 5:45 AM
I never argue. I am sorry you feel the need to argue. I am only engage in loving discussion to bring us closer to Christ. Sometimes this involves correcting out of love, but never arguing. You have made it abundantly clear that something about the LDS language makes you uncomfortable and find the language unfortunate and therefore you have expressed a fear of loving discussion using the language. Discussing language helps us delight in clarity, as Nephi would say. Clarity in the gospel brings us closer to Christ.
Amie 5:47 AM
I have very little interest in opinions, because we all know what opinions are like. But I can give it a try. What would you like me to express an opinion about? For example, if you refuse to clarify the language you use, isn't it impossible for you to help others come closer to Christ? Does that show you feel there is something wrong about what you are doing? Is that opinion wrong?
Martin 5:48 AM
In your opening comment you ask: "Does "one true church" mean that all other churches are false?" Why is it used? Does this statement offend you?
Amie 5:51 AM
Should it offend me?
Martin 5:52 AM
I can see how it could offend
Amie 5:54 AM
But it doesn't offend you? You find it unfortunate, but not offensive? Why do you think it is such a common expression you find unfortunate that your fellow LDS members and leaders use?
Martin 5:55 AM
It is unfortunate because it sounds dogmatic
Amie 5:55 AM
My original question was to understand the meaning. If I understood your answer, it does not mean all other Churches are false. So other Churches are true also?
Martin 5:55 AM
All Churches have some truth
Amie 5:58 AM
So you don't use the express "one true Church"?
Martin 5:58 AM
Can I share with you what God said in a revelation to Joseph Smith in answer to that question?
Amie 5:59 AM
What do you think your fellow LDS mean by the expression?
Martin 5:59 AM
I cant speak on behalf of others
Amie 6:01 AM
That is really amazing. It is an expression core to your religion you are here to answer questions about. A common expression amongst the religion's leaders and your fellow missionaries alike. So, you are clearly uncomfortable with expressions of the religion. Please share with me what God said in a revelation to JS.
Martin 6:02 AM
On November 1, 1831 Joseph Smith received a revelation from God, I am now quoting just one sentence from it: speaking of the Church that God had restored onto the earth through Joseph Smith, he described it as: "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually". I can explain that if you want me to.
Amie 6:06 AM
Please explain, because it appears you expressed that you feel the language God used here is unfortunate.
Martin 6:07 AM
Amie please let me be clear. To state only true and living does not mean every other church is false and has no truth. The expression "only true church" to me is unfortunate if it implies other churches have no truth for neither I nor our church believe that. I don't know I can be clearer. How I can be clearer
Amie 6:12 AM
It is unfortunate that you can not clarify. "Only true church" would mean in English that all other Churches are not true. Not true means false in most languages. But you are saying that it does not mean that all other Churches are false, but it also does not mean they are true. So all other Churches are neither false or true. If they are neither false or true, what are they?
Martin 6:13 AM
When the Saviour described our church as "only true and living church" he was referring to the church He had established, with a living prophet He had called and with priesthood authority He had sent through John the Baptist and Peter James and John to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Does that mean those who love the Bible and love Jesus Christ and serve Him in any other faith are following a faith with no truth, I don't think so. But the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is only to be found in the church that God himself restored. Why else would He restore his church if it already existed in its fullness?
Amie 6:21 AM
OK. So there is no clarification. If there are no false Churches, then a Church being true has no meaning and is a nondescript phrase that without meaningful discussion because it has no description. The Bible speaks of false prophets. Are saying other Christian Churches are not lead by false prophets, because none of them are false Churches?
Martin 6:22 AM
Amie - before I continue allow me to say that if you are a Christian and happy with your faith and belief, please continue in that. I sense that you have faith in Jesus Christ and that is the first principle of the Gospel. All I would say is that if God did call Joseph Smith as His prophet, then he has revealed to him things that have been lost since New testament times. We can offer any Christian more than what they currently have. But if you are happy with what you have then please do continue with what you have. If you are not completely happy and have unanswered questions we can offer you more. Did you know that we have been on this chat for almost one hour. I need to now move on and respond to other chats that are waiting.
Amie 6:28 AM
Of course Joseph Smith was a prophet. I am only here to offer you more. Do you not want more?
Martin 6:28 AM
Now I am confused Amie!
Amie 6:31 AM
You have expressed considerable disappointment in the limitation of your religions language and its rejection of additional truths. I, like you, do not call other religions false, none do I use the nonsensical phrases, such as a Church being true. In standard language a Church can be neither true or false. Statements can be true or false, but organizations are just organizations. I am not here to take anything away from you Martin, I am only here to invite you to come closer to Christ and offer you more truths. Do you not wish to have more?
Martin 6:32 AM
Please clarify your previous statement Amie: "Of course Joseph Smith was a prophet". Do you believe that?
Amie 6:33 AM
Of course. Why does that confuse you? The Pope is a prophet, Pat Robertson is a prophet, etc.
Martin 6:33 AM
Amie - I now believe that I understand your true purpose in coming on this chat and it is not to find out about our faith, nor is it really to have me explain statements or provide you with definitions but it is to encourage me to change my beliefs or for me to believe what you believe. Are you now willing to admit that? I am afraid Amie that such as is not my purpose.
Amie 6:38 AM
Martin - If you are happy with your faith and belief, please continue in that. All I would say is that if God did call the Pope, Martin Luther, Pat Robertson as prophets, then he has revealed to them things that have been lost since New testament times. They can offer any Christian more than what they currently have. But if you are happy with what you have then please do continue with what you have. If you are not completely happy and have unanswered questions I can offer you more. Did you know that we have been on this chat for almost one hour.
Martin 6:38 AM
We have been chatting for 1 hour and 5 mins and now I finally see what your purpose is
Amie 6:38 AM
So sad. Martin, that is not very Christlike of you. You clearly are only here to argue and express hate towards others
Martin 6:38 AM
I have no hate and I do not argue.
Amie 6:39 AM
I never argue. I'm duty bound to correct you out of love. You made it clear that your purpose is not to share truths with others, but only to reject others and take away from them. I am sorry to see you fight against Christ with your expressions of hate above
Martin 6:39 AM
On a personal note Amie I do wish you well.
Amie 6:40 AM
I invite you to find the humility to ask forgiveness for your false accusations and return to Christ.
Martin 6:40 AM
All the very best Amie. Bye.
Amie 6:40 AM
Come to Christ
Martin ended the chat session.
Now chatting with: Judith and Martin
Amie 6:43 AM
Martin, why did you indicate that your purpose is only to change others believes? Can you clarify why that is your purpose?
Martin ended the chat session.
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Amie 6:45 AM
Martin - You expressed that you feel there is something wrong with your purpose to change others beliefs. Why? Why do you feel that would be wrong?
Now chatting with: Judith and Martin
Martin ended the chat session.